Curse

XvArchonvX · Nov 30, 2006, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

A person can play a PvE Mesmer extremely well in so many ways it's not even funny. Turning an enemy's strength against him is a Mesmer's strong suit. Wanna make life miserable for a Melee class AI that's coming after you?

Empathy (baddie hurts himself)
+ Spirit of Failure (baddie hurts himself, but doesn't hurt you 25% of the time and gives you energy every time he misses!)
+ Sympathetic Visage (while baddie is hurting himself, and giving you energy, he's losing energy and adrenalin - along with any of his adjacent buddies - making his skill bar useless. Which means less damage that he can deliver to you!)

Now, whatever can be done with the other 5 skill slots? One option for one of those slots is Inspired hex, a wonderfully sadistic toy - that necro put suffering on you? Give him a taste of his own medicine. (Catching SS is a treat, especially if you're a Me/N with some [or a lot] of points in curses)

Empathy < Spiteful Spirit. Even with the Empathy buff, it is outdone by a SS. Also Spirit of Failure is useless in PvE unless you are using it in some farm build. Most enemies die before they even have enough chance to even miss once from it, let alone to miss enough times to merit the long cast time (even with FC) and to provide enough net energy gain to pay for itself. Bosses are the exception, but brining SoFailure just for a boss fight is a waste of a skill slot since it will only provide healthy energy regen when facing the boss and is still inferior to any blinding skills that could be used on the boss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

I was making a point that now Me have high AoE damage potential. This helps a ton in PvE, which is mobfest. Yes, a Me is not a damage dealer in the way an Ele is, but having the AoE spike skills does help a lot. And I was also making the point that not only can a Me dish out high AoE damage with the new skills, a Me can also build to counter casters, physicals, whathaveyou, all of this on one skillbar and w/o any unreasonable stretching of att points. The agrument about Ele damage came because I made a note that a Me can easily be as effective (if not more than a SF Ele). The point was just that- Me can dish out a lot of AoE damage AND at the same time provide utility to the group, an SF Ele can only dish out damage. And- as always- people got caught up on the damage comparison.

Me lacked the damage output that most other professions have in PvE. Things simply don't last long enough to be using utility skills on them, for the most part. And that gave Me a disadvantage, much like Sins, lack of powerful AoEs. Now things are changing with the AoE damage that fits perfectly well in a regular Domination build.

Spiritual Pain and Mistrust don't make a damage dealer. Even with buffs to reduce their recharge, these skills still take way too long to recharge to be worth much in dps.

If you are arguing that the advantage of a mesmer in PvE is that they are damage dealers that can also provide support, then I would argue that a Barrage Ranger and/or an SS Necro could still outdamage a mesmer and bring support to the table. Barrage rangers have interupts with shorter recharge times than mesmers which is more practical in PvE since enemies die quickly. they can also blind enemies via throw dirt and snare with traps if needed. The damage they deal is generally 35-60+ every 2 seconds depending on how well they build. SS Necros bring blood ritual along with the ability to fill up with any secondary skills for support. In PvE, necros arguably have the best energy management in the game which allows many necros to go N/Me and use any mesmer support that is needed. Toss in a bit of death magic and an SS can lay down Well of the Profane which provides excellent AoE shutdown of enemy dervish enemies as well.

With this said, I will still agree that there are certain missions where a mesmer can really shine, though I would argue that it would be via the role of one who disrupts/shutsdown and not as a damage dealer.

nSin · Nov 30, 2006, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toutatis

Depends on what you want the particular build to do, and who else is in your party. Punishment? Shutdown? Interrupt? Degen? Anti-tank? Anti-caster? Hex manipulation? Enchantment manipulation? Energy/adrenaline denial? My experience of the game may be more limited but even I recognise that 8 skill slots is not enough to efficiently fill more than one combat role and provide for sufficient energy management at the same time.

When I say "getting the skill bar right" it means looking at your party, assessing their strengths and weaknesses, then looking at the enemies you plan to face and then assessing their strengths and weaknesses as well. Load up on at least 3 energy management skills that conform to the role you need to fill to be of any benefit to the team, the standard rez skill and self-healing skill, and then decide on what other skills you might need to better fill your role and alter your attribute levels to get your "build of the moment" operating as well as you realistically can.

It wouldn't matter what build I gave as an example. It would be a build customised to a unique team setup and combat zone, and testing it under a different set of conditions would likely end up in the build failing miserably.

How about an area like the realm of torment, exactly the area where I felt my mesmer wasn't as useful by far when compared to my Necro or my Paragon, who both may be too powerful classes for PvE, I fully acknowledge.

You're facing warriors, rangers, mesmers, monks, necros, dervish and paragons so everything is thrown at you. And in addition, they duplicate so you need to kill them quickly otherwise.

The rangers pack AOE barrage and Debilitating Shot so you don't have energy, in additions they're immune to physical attacks for a long period.
The warriors aren't quite as scary but if you let them be they hit hard and charge adrenaline fast.
The mesmers here have Power Flux which will screw up your energy, or your monks energy, in addition they shatter enchantments to screw up your team.
The elementalists use blurred vision and ice spikes/deep freeze to spike, these hexes make it nearly impossible for your physical attackers to inflict damage.
The dervishes... I honestly don't know much about because I haven't played them yet, but in general, you'll need some form of enchantment removal for them. Or atleast make them miss.
The Paragons are secondary healers with their ballad of restoration, in addition they have high armor so they need to be dealt with with armor ignoring damage.
The monks are pretty terrible luckily.. they do have hexes that can screw up your physical attackers.
The necros are the most scary, if you don't attack the the first they will have a huge army walking around really quickly.

So, what did I do, Shatter Hex because the enemies mass hexes here, backfire because the monks don't have hex removal here, Spirit of failure because otherwise the rangers got out of control. Leech Signet to interrupt some of the nasty spells they had, I chose this over Power Drain because I also had to interrupt trolls unguent and lions strength. Cry of Frustration to interrupt an entire group at the same time since they pack up and cast their spells almost exactly at the same time, also used to interrupt toll unguent/lions strength. Mistrust for some AOE damage and an interrupt. Spiritual Pain because t is too good to pass up on. Backfire because you can just put it on a monk or mesmer and they can't even remove it. MoR/GoR/Echo for shorter cooldowns.

That's 8 spells already so I couldn't even pack a res signet, which is against my principles. Now, maybe this is my flaw - but this build doesn't work. I think I attempted to counter everything throw at me pretty decently but when you look at the skills

Shatter hex - 15 energy
Backfire - 15 energy
Mistrust - 10 Energy
Cry of Frustration - 15 energy
Spritual Pain - 10 Energy
Spirit of Failure - 10 energy - gives back energy but extremely minor
Leech Signet - finally some energy management
And an elite, which will let me cast one of these expensive spells again.

Now IF I were able to cast these spells, I would say that I'm quite capable of matching my allies in usefulness. This is some awesome AOE damage and shutdown and would exactly counter this area, if you disagree here, give suggestions I posted all the information you needed.

HOWEVER because the energy management on mesmers is so bad, it is near impossible to actually use this build efficiently, you can try Mantra of Recall as your elite, however, then you have to deal with enormous cooldowns again, one monster missing 25% that can only be applied every 10 seconds is really nothing to brag about, an interrupt with a 20 second cooldown where-as the spell that you interrupt has a much shorter cooldown sort of defeats the purpose. Spiritual Pain with a 30 second cooldown isn't all that hot... (100/30 - 3 damage a second? suffering even outdamages that).

And honestly, all this single target shutdown is alright against one group, but can you deal with two groups? Several classes are very effective still when you suddenly face two groups, and can do sufficient amount of damage/protection to deal with that, a mesmer on the other hand is really single target oriented, therefore, if the amount of single targets suddenly doubled a mesmer suffers far more then classes that go for AOE or control. A ward against melee or an aegis is more effective then a Spirit of Failure when the amount of targets doubled.

Now I would like everyone that tells me to "get the right build" to either correct my build or give me the "correct" build in this area, something which enables me to deal with everything thrown at me, like I can do with all other classes, that has still decent cooldowns for when things need to be re-applied and you can actually manage your energy with. If this seems like asking much, well, that is what the other classes are capable of.

XvArchonvX · Nov 30, 2006, 02:14 PM // 14:14

@ nSin:
Run that build on a N/Me with some points in Soul Reaping and you have your energy management, lol.

nSin · Nov 30, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Exactly, on a curse necro with SS/Reckless Haste/Desecrate Enchantments/Defile Enchantments/Leech Signet/Power Drain/Signet of lost souls/Res Sig I'll do FAR better AOE damage against all enemies, can interupt almost just as good, provide better protections against physical attackers and most importantly - I'll still have near unlimited energy while doing all this. Just Signet of Lost Souls already gives a 3 pip energy regen - I'm not even counting Soul Reaping bonuses, in addition, the cooldowns are shorter and the energy costs not as harsh..

Note that if I go Necromancer, I normally just go serpents quickness instead of mesmer secondary because I don't really need to bother, the enemies die really fast either way.

XvArchonvX · Nov 30, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Frankly I'm surprised that A-net hasn't just increased the cast times of Inspiration energy regen spells to counter their use on other character primaries (there is a reason /Me don't use Energy Tap in PvP). I think A-net had the right idea with Drain Delusions in that it is a energy regen skill that really isn't useful to any class outside of mesmer primary, but the net gain in energy is really sad, especially since it requires you to cast a hex that will be removed early, the cost of which counters the gain from Drain Delusions.

Hella Good · Nov 30, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

XvArchonvX, your constant diminishing of the Me abilities is disturbing. It seems to me, unless ANet makes Eles out of Me, Rangers out of Me, or Necros out of Me, you won't be happy with the results.

Lets reverse this a lil bit. Rangers are one of the most pathetic profession in PvE, unless they run inters, and- mind you- only in the form of a hero that doesn't have reaction time. Necros- the undisputed kings of PvE, can mostly run MM, and maybe Blood support (Orders, Wells, BR/BIP). SS got nerfed pretty well to the point where its DPS has been significantly reduced by scatter. Eles- granted they got it rly good this time around- are still struggling with high armor targets.

And even if we accept the claim that Eles have higher DPS, R are better at interring, N are better at hexing. NONE of these can do all at the same time. However, a Me can not only do all at the same time, a Me can do it all in the same LINE of skills.

And as for your constand dismissing of SP, you fail to understand the concept of SPIKE damage versus DAMAGE OVER TIME.

XvArchonvX · Nov 30, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

XvArchonvX, your constant diminishing of the Me abilities is disturbing. It seems to me, unless ANet makes Eles out of Me, Rangers out of Me, or Necros out of Me, you won't be happy with the results.

My point is that the role a mesmer can try to play in PvE is often suited better by other primary professions that are simply more adapted to the PvE setting in most cases. As the OP said, fast casting doesn't mean much when an NPC can interupt regardless of cast time. And I would correct you that I never doubted the mesmer's ability, but only their comparative use in PvE. I agree with the OP that a mesmer can still get by in PvE fine, but they simply don't perform as efficiently as other primary classes by virtue of their primary qualities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

Lets reverse this a lil bit. Rangers are one of the most pathetic profession in PvE, unless they run inters, and- mind you- only in the form of a hero that doesn't have reaction time.

LoL!! Sorry, I really had to laugh at that one. Build a thumper or any type of R/X Rampage as one build and you have some of the strongest single target damage that a profession can deal. Build a barrage ranger and you have some of the strongest, most reliable AoE damage available (not to mention it's being dished out by a much more stout character than a squishy caster). Heros can interupt well, but just because a ranger hero can outperform a human in terms of interupting does not in any way prove that a ranger is ill-adapted to PvE. The same thing could be said about any mesmer interupter, except that the mesmer interupter will suffer longer recharge times and is a much squishier target (100 AL vs ele ftw).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

Necros- the undisputed kings of PvE, can mostly run MM, and maybe Blood support (Orders, Wells, BR/BIP). SS got nerfed pretty well to the point where its DPS has been significantly reduced by scatter. Eles- granted they got it rly good this time around- are still struggling with high armor targets.

Even though the effectiveness of SS has been hurt a bit by the AI update, it still outdamages Empathy anyday. The point of an SS compared to a mesmer is that they can do what a mesmer can with a more reliable energy storage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

And even if we accept the claim that Eles have higher DPS, R are better at interring, N are better at hexing. NONE of these can do all at the same time. However, a Me can not only do all at the same time, a Me can do it all in the same LINE of skills.

Mesmers may be able to put a skillbar together to hex, remove hexes, interupt, deal damage, etc., it doesn't mean they can do it any better than any other class. I would also disagree in that you can use a necro and be able to hex, interupt, etc all together with mesmer skills, but have a leg up on a mesmer by virtue of soul reaping. In many PvP settings a necro is really quite limited since Soul Reaping is no where near as powerful there as it is in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

And as for your constand dismissing of SP, you fail to understand the concept of SPIKE damage versus DAMAGE OVER TIME.

I am well aware of both, but quite frankly, spike damage is pointless in PvE. In PvP, the ability to deal a quick rush of damage before a monk can respond is an advantage, but in PvE, there are usually incredibly weak monks to no monks to back up enemies. The challenge in PvE is produced by fighting masses of enemies, not of fighting strong enemies. Dealing the most dps is more effective than dealing the most damage in one hit in PvE.

Toutatis · Nov 30, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

nSin, one thing that I notice about that build is that the energy costs are all fairly high. I would look for cheaper alternatives that may not serve exactly the same purpose, but still do the basic things that you need them to do. You also made no mention of your mesmer's secondary profession - does your secondary profession have similar/cheaper skills that do more or less what you need them to, or offer any options for additional energy management? I'll admit that my Me/E rarely uses skills from the E side of things, but those glyphs and water hexes can be useful once in a while.

I also note that you say that it counters everything the area throws at you. In my opinion, this would be attempting to fill more than one combat role and you may be spreading your skills too thin. What I would do is find out what role is needed the most, going on the builds that the rest of your party has and then try to specialise into that single role. Never been to the Realm of Torment myself (I don't have Nightfall yet) so you'll know what resources are at your disposal better than I do.